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TIM SEBASTIAN
We certainly are and we're going to do that now. Zeid Al Sabban, thank you very much indeed. I'm going to throw the topic open now to the floor and we will take your questions. Lady in the second row, there, on the right. We'll get a microphone to you. Could I have your question please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
One of the suggestions to coerce Sudan to seek peace is imposing economic sanctions. This did not work in Iraq. Do you think it would convince these political groups to seek peace? As Nadim said, already two million people are living in refugee camps including the ones in Chad, and casualties are estimated [at] a minimum of 200,000, the causes of which are attributed to either crime or starvation. Do you believe imposing these sanctions could resolve or at least calm the issue down? I address any one of the panel. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Zeid Al Abban, would you like to talk about economic sanctions? You've always resisted them on behalf of Sudan, haven't you?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes. Of course. Not for no reason. We think that Sudan is.. we don't think - this is a fact: Sudan is one of the least developed countries according to the United Nations. Economic sanctions will just put Sudan in a corner where there will be more famine, more disaster. We don't think that with economic sanctions we can get to solve the problem. We solved it, we reached a point where the government of Sudan accepted the hybrid forces on their own. This was totally impossible to reach a year-and-a-half ago. By dialogue we reached this point, they approved that, not with economic sanctions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Nadim Hasbani?
NADIM HASBANI
You know, economic sanctions is a bad word, especially in the Arab World, because we know what economic sanctions did to the Iraqi people. I perfectly agree with you, but there is something called targeted sanctions, when you have Sudanese government officials ordering the mass killing of their own people - you can sanction them, not sanction the Sudanese people, but sanction the Sudanese leaders for killing their own people. You can target sanctions on them, on their financial assets, on their travel, etc. without sanctioning the Sudanese people. That's a way of putting pressure on them so they stop killing their own people in Darfur. So what I would advocate for is targeted sanctions against the leaders who are guilty and not against the entire people of Sudan.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ambassador, you have a view on that? Do you want to come back on that?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, I want to say something about sanctions. You impose a sanction as a punishment when somebody's guilty, but it is disputed that.. why would Sudan deserve sanctions? You know that the Security Council is the most undemocratic institution on earth. [The] United States comes with a veto, they dictate everything they want on the Security Council, they pass it. It's a matter of putting weight and leverage against certain members to vote for a certain position.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There are five countries that have vetoes in the Security Council..
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's right, that's right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
..not just the United States.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's correct but it depends on the situation. They use this right to pass things even though they are not correct, and therefore the question is: are those sanctions justified, and why would you put a sanction on a country like Sudan? It is a Third World country, it does not have economic might, it has its problems. Instead of helping the country to overcome its problems, you impose sanctions? Now, who's responsible for those people who died in aircraft crashes because of sanctions in Sudan? There is a Boeing, in 1997, that [crashed].. 103 people died because [the] United States refused to provide spare parts.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we're getting off the subject.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No - the sanctions, these are sanctions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question from the front row. Saad Eddin Ibrahim. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I want to ask the panellist, isn't it the case that Arab regimes usually look the other way whenever one of them is implicated in an internal problem, even if it is crimes against humanity? In other words, there is complicity among Arab dictators, Arab autocrats, and there is no record for the Arab League intervening or the Arabs putting their effort together to resolve any problem - any internal problem - even if it involves mass suffering and mass killing. We have Somalia, we have the Kurds in Iraq and we have now Darfur. Where has the Arab League really made any serious or successful intervention in all of these crises that have plagued the Arab World for the last 30, 40 years? That is my question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Zeid Al Sabban, straight to your door.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you very much. It's direct and I will reply by a direct answer also. As you know, I mentioned earlier that we don't have even, the Arab League [doesn't] have forces like the African Union have, but this is why, concerning Darfur, we use the African Union energy, we use the African Union forces which [were] doing a great job. We tried to finance it, this is one. Second, about the inquiry mission that was sent to Darfur, this was an Arab League [mission] and we were very critical to the situation there, and I remember..and the Ambassador, I think he can remember also.. the government of Sudan was not very happy with this situation, with our report - but we did it. I mean that we are in front of a new world, inside the Arab World and outside the Arab World. Now we have for the first time, we have our parliament, we have Arab NGOs that can go and participate in the Arab League discussions. This is new. We are doing it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do feel free to come back on this. Please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't look that impressed by what you're hearing.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No, I am not, unfortunately, even though all the speakers are very articulate - but I feel they are skirting around, well, at least one side is skirting around the issue. We have suffering that has been going on and this regime, the ruling regime in Sudan, has a record of killing its own people [on] a mass scale, not only in Darfur but before that in other parts of Sudan, in the south, for a long time. I don't want to get off the subject, but..
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we'll give the Ambassador a chance to reply to that.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I totally object to your statement because it is not substantiated. You cannot just come and talk about a regime killing. Have you counted the people killed by the Sudanese government, if any? You cannot testify to that. So it's unfair in a public forum like this - you say a certain government is convicted of mass killing, that is.. that's unfair. You should [praise] the government of Sudan for maintaining the security of the region of East Africa all these years, for the peace accord in Naivasha, that is a miraculous effort. That [this] is done is a miraculous record all over the history of Africa, I think.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Mr Ambassador, every word I said is documented in a 1000-page book on minorities in the Arab World.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It's all nonsense, it's all nonsense. I can sit here and write thousands of pages about Israel, about the United States. Would that make it true? No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's bring in Ahmed Diraige please.
AHMED DIRAIGE
If I may come in here. I think the Ambassador, in his speech, he talked about supporting the Arab governments, that they gave unfettered moral and political support. This is an indictment, because how can, if [the] Professor is not right, how can governments give such a government unfettered moral and political support when it has been bombing its innocent people by bombs inside their villages, when it has now about 3,500,000 people in the internally displaced camps, when there are nearly half-a-million people who have crossed the boundaries. They're in Chad, they're in Central Africa. When there are young men and women who were able, who emigrated from Sudan. Some are in Australia, some are in Britain... How can they support with unfettered - give unfettered support to such a government?
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you would admit, all sides have carried out war crimes, as the UN has said, all sides ...
AHMED DIRAIGE
But there is a difference. The government's responsibility is to protect its people, to bring peace and security, and then try to help people to find a way to live, but when the government itself is bombing the people from the air indiscriminately, they don't know who's down there, is it a child, is it a woman, is it a man.. and then to the extent that there are three-and-a-half million people, and then, don't forget - is all the international community wrong? Last year and this year there were demonstrations in 37 countries in support of the people of Darfur. Are all these people wrong and the government is right? I think the Professor's question is a very good question, because in our Third World, the human being is not valuable.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Very briefly.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
If I may, we should understand the statement of the distinguished Mr. Diraige within the context that he represents the opposition, so we have just noticed that he increased the number from two million to three million and a half. It is a false statement about the number of refugees. According to the report of the United Nations, there are about two million displaced and refugees.. and also when Nadim talked about those killed, 200,000, Nadim forgot that his organisation ICG was indicted in the United Kingdom just last year for using the issue of Darfur politically to collect funds. And there is a lot of disinformation. We're talking about 9,000 casualties and that number is yet to be confirmed..
NADIM HASBANI
Ambassador, did you count them the 9,000? Where is this figure from?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's the government's estimation
NADIM HASBANI
I give you the UN's estimation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Alright We're moving on. Question in the front row, please. You sir, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening, everybody. Now I want to ask a straightforward question to Mr. Nadim and Mr. Diraige, without going out of the subject, trying to condemn the Sudan government is going to take us out of that. Now, Mr. Nadim is repeating, you are repeating the claim of 200,000 people who have been killed in the war. This audience will be very happy if you could tomorrow publish the names of only 200, not 200,000, with the names and their villages, please, we will be very happy to see that in your website of your organisation. The second thing is that your organisation have heard of the children who have been, and the babies who have been taken with the [inaudible] of the war in Darfur, they have been taken as slaves to be sold in Europe. What [has] your organisation said on that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, you've made two questions now. We'll ask him to answer them. Please, no statements. Nadim Hasbani?
NADIM HASBANI
OK. The problem is [that] the Sudanese government doesn't allow any media to go to Darfur. That's why you have this issue on numbers. However, how can you explain all the aid that is flooding to Darfur, how can you explain all the aid to the refugee camps where people in the refugee [camps], they testify and tell you, 'My family, my three, four children were killed in front of my eyes.' I have the testimonies on video. It's on the Crisis Group website, I will send you the link if you [would] like me to. People who testify how they were raped, killed. What would you say if your sister or wife is raped? Do you do nothing about it? There are thousands of cases like that who are documented. It happened in Darfur and it happened because of the government's support, and further to that, this is a major catastrophe: you have Muslims killing Muslims in Darfur. That's why we say the West should not meddle in it. OK, but for Muslims, shouldn't they as a religious duty do something about it, say something about it? Send aid. All the Gulf countries, there's a lot of money today in the Gulf because of the oil prices. What are the figures of aid sent to Darfur? I can tell you what Canada sent: $150 million in aid. Canada is 20-25 million people. The Arab World is 250 million people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's let the questioner come back here.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you, Nadim, for the same kinds of lectures we used to hear from the media in the West. I think I've had enough of that one. Another question for Mr. Diraige.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've used up a lot of questions. I'm sorry, we've got a lot of people who have questions here. Thank you very much.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Can I add to this?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly and then I'm going to take another question. Very briefly.
AHMED DIRAIGE
What I want to add is the question about somebody giving you names of 200,000 people, who they are and where they come from. It's an impossible question, so this question I think is redundant. It shouldn't be asked. The other thing is the children who have been taken by some French organisation. Who took them out in the camps in the first place, to be subjected to this kind of treatment? The Sudan government. So if the government was looking after its own people, not bombing them, not forcing them to go and stay and be exposed, to be taken as slaves, it wouldn't have happened, so the first blame was their own.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you. Lady in the third row, if you could stand up please, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
You've already mentioned what we have done, but what makes you think we haven't cared? You could just suggest some [more] things that we could do to help.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nadim Hasbani?
NADIM HASBANI
Well, we should differentiate between two things, what the Arab governments have done and what the people have done. There was a Zogby poll last year, 2007, that was made in four different Arab countries, asking people about Darfur, if they care. You know, over the phone, they call you at home, and people said "yes we do care but we don't know what's happening. We want to send aid but we don't know how to do it." Because people are sensitive to what's happening but governments are not. That's a major issue. What governments should do is politically stop supporting the Sudanese government for killing its own people - it's killing its own population. This is unacceptable. Then what we should do as human beings, as part of the Arab society, is try to help the other by sending donations, by sending aid through the Red Crescent and other organisations, and this has not been done yet.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Alright. We're going to hear from this side.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I wanted to say something about what this gentleman just said about a woman testifying to [being] raped. According to official reports, I know that [some cases] of rape have been tried [inaudible] by a Sudanese court in Darfur, but to make it verbally, a general statement, and you [add] to it a few zeros, thousands of women testifying to be raped, this is unfair and it's not true.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How do you know it's not true?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It's not true because it's hearsay. It will only be true if he brought examples like the distinguished gentleman here, who asked the question. If he brought the name, the testimony, the report is taken. The time is not yet right for talking about testimonies until the war is over, there is peace and then we open the records and see who [was] raped and who [was] not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. I'm going to take a question from the lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. My question is to those against the motion. Don't you think that what you see as help or care from the Arab governments is only a convergence of interest, just like Cairo?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you like to be more specific about that - convergence of interest?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I mean, you mentioned [as] one of your examples Egypt, and you said that it's helping as it's holding the peace conferences. It's helping only because it has some interest as the Nile river crosses Sudan and came from there, and so it helps the Sudanese government to solve the situation only because it has some interest. We don't see any help from any other countries.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Zeid Al Sabban?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes. First I don't think that in Darfur there is [the] Nile. The Egyptian and the Sudanese countries are very close to each other historically. This is history, this is geography, we will not change it. As Darfur is very close to Libya and to Chad, this is history and geography, so there is always interest by the Arab countries in general and by Egypt and neighbouring countries like Libya, for example, in particular towards the Sudan. But I have to say something else, concerning the bombardments and how the government is responding. I think without reaching the point where we can go to peace talks, where we can start these peace talks, we will always be facing the dilemma of rebels trying to change the regime of Sudan and government of Sudan, looking at those rebels as criminals, so we have to reach the point where we can find the forum of the peace talks, and this is what we are concentrating on since the eruption of the conflict.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Gentleman in the fourth row, there, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. My question is for Mr. Zeid and Mr. Sirajuddin. You're saying that the Arab countries are actually caring about Darfur, but about one year ago hundreds of Darfurian refugees went to Egypt and gathered in the middle, in the centre of Egypt, I think in January, and what did the Egyptian government do about this? They splashed the people with water, cold water, in the middle of January and hundreds of people died, and about 50% of those people went to Israel and there they found the compassion and food and shelter that they needed. Why [wasn't this] shelter and food provided by the Egyptian government?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Zeid Al Sabban?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you very much for this question. Indeed I was in Abuja at that time when this very bad incident happened, but I must say to you that I was personally involved with the United Nations and with the United Nations Development Programme in Egypt working on this, and I think that what you are saying - that the Egyptian government is responsible for that - this must be revised. It is not the responsibility of the Egyptian government - and I was personally involved in this - it was a shared responsibility.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Shared between whom?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Shared responsibility between ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who subjected them to cold water treatment in the middle of January?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I will tell you, there were rumours at that time given by.. I don't want to go into these details, it was rumours given at that time by some of the ...humanitarian [agencies]..
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're clouding the issue here. The police used water cannon on unarmed people in the middle of January, didn't they? Fact. Fact. Fact.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes, they did. Yes, they did.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So they bear responsibility. Fact. So there's no way of getting out of the responsibility of the Egyptian authorities for what happened, is there?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I am talking about another thing, when they were told that there [was] some [butane] gas with the refugees at that time and they were going to explode it, something like that, and we discussed this also with the United Nations afterwards.
NADIM HASBANI
It happened at demonstrations in Cairo as well. The demonstration was repressed, Darfurians in Cairo, at a different time, who were demonstrating against their situation, how they lived in Cairo, it was repressed. How shameful it is for us as Arabs to go to Israel for shelter - can you imagine how bad these people's situation was, to go seek shelter in Israel? How bad their situation in Egypt was?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Why just focus on the Darfurians? I don't think that only the Darfurians...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Because that's the issue that we're talking about.
NADIM HASBANI
There are many refugees from Darfur... too many.
ZEID AL SABBAN
There are many refugees - too many refugees - from Somalia, from Kenya, and they are traversing, they are going by Egypt to Israel. It's not only Sudanese.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Diraige?
AHMED DIRAIGE
I think the question asked by some young lady there is very relevant, and I think the relations between nations is not based on love, it is based on interests. This must be clearly understood, and Egypt has genuine interest in the Sudan, because of the Nile, and Egypt was a colonial power, it was a condominium, they ruled the Sudan jointly, but Egypt is still is hoping that one day there will be unity between Sudan and Egypt, and I myself find it illogical that the government of Sudan, who tried to kill the President of Egypt in Addis Ababa when he was attending the conference of the Organisation of African Unity...
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Objection, Sir...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Give him a chance to reply.
AHMED DIRAIGE
No, but it's true, it's a fact, it's a fact. The relations between the government - the Sudan government - and Egypt were so bad at the beginning when the Islamic fundamentalists took over. First of all they nationalised all the Egyptian property there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Ahmed Diraige, let's give the Ambassador a chance to reply to your allegations.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, what I wanted to say generally is that this incident of refugees in Egypt is an isolated incident. You cannot just put the whole heritage of the Egyptian-Sudanese relations on the way Egypt treated those refugees. They may have used ...
ZEID AL SABBAN
Two million and a half, Mr. Ambassador, two million and a half Sudanese are living in Egypt right now.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, about 5 million Sudanese are living in Egypt.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do they have any rights?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
So I'm not just blaming Egypt for that and for everything.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Where were they, where were they?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
And the other thing, I just wanted to object to the statement made by the distinguished Mr. Diraige that the government of Sudan tried to kill the President of Egypt. This is nonsense, this is incorrect - even Egypt did not say that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. You've made the accusation, he's denied it, let's move on. The gentleman in the first row there, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for the panel for the motion. As you were saying, Mr. Ahmed, money is not enough, $250 million, it's just not enough. You wanted us to negotiate peace talks, we had Abuja peace talks. What exactly would you like from your fellow Arab governments?
AHMED DIRAIGE
I would like that we as Muslims ...as Allah said to us.. [..in Arabic..]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we do this in English, please?
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes, it means that if two factions of Muslims quarrel with each other, you must come to mediate between them and to try to solve the problem, and if one party is the culprit, then you fight that party. This is what we want, we want our Arab brothers not to unconditionally support the government, but to come and say, 'Well, look, you are all Sudanese, Sudan is a member of the Arab League. I think what they want is wrong. You, the government, has responsibility.' Try to mediate, try to intervene positively but not unconditionally support the government as the Ambassador said.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We're going to take a question, the gentleman at the back, you sir. We're waiting for a microphone for you. It's coming.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much. My question is for the opposition, especially Mr. Zeid since he was taking the position of defending Egypt. I'm Egyptian, by the way. Mr. Zeid, you claim that the Egyptian government does care about the Darfur situation. Wouldn't you say that an army like the Egyptian army, that was able to cross the Suez Canal in '73, break through the Bar Lev Line, push the Israeli forces all the way, hundreds of kilometres, through Sinai to the Palestinian borders, wouldn't you say that such an army would be able to contain or sustain the situation of Darfur, or at least stabilise the situation? And please don't tell me that 1700 soldiers are enough. For God's sake, it takes more soldiers than that to stop a protest in Cairo. Thank you very much.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you. Indeed the first supply made by Egypt was much more than this, and this was according to a lot of negotiations between the United Nations and between Egypt, and I have to tell you something, that according to the rules of the United Nations for places in conflict and for countries in conflict, they are not allowed, I mean, the neighbouring countries, to send more than a certain number. So, the Egyptians..
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Do you always go by the book, sir?
ZEID AL SABBAN
No, because we were in favour of sending much more troops from Egypt, as the Arab League, and the Secretary General of the League of Arab States last October, excuse me, last September, he sent a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations in this regard. The offer of Egypt was much more. The United Nations has its rules. It rejected the offer made by Egypt and it took certain numbers. This is what I'm talking about.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So the Egyptian government wanted to send more soldiers but they couldn't because ...
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes, yes. Not only the Egyptian government. It's concerning the neighbouring countries. They are not allowed to send certain number of troops, because the neighbouring countries...
TIM SEBASTIAN
How many did it want to send?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I think 3,000.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nadim Hasbani?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much.
ZEID AL SABBAN
So they cannot send, for example they cannot send the 26,000. The Egyptians [could] send easily the 26,000 - but they cannot.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Nadim Hasbani, you wanted to come in on this?
NADIM HASBANI
Regarding neighbouring countries, this UN rule was made mainly because some parties at the conflict did not trust the neighbouring countries' neutrality in the conflict, so first it's a lack of trust towards Egypt. Second, the 1,700 ...
ZEID AL SABBAN
This is the principle, it's all over the world.
NADIM HASBANI
...OK. The 1,700 are not protecting civilians in Darfur because they are not in Darfur. This is a promise in the air for the moment. I'm waiting for the result and then I will judge. For the moment it's a promise in the air, and Egypt itself...
ZEID AL SABBAN
How in the air? This is documented.
NADIM HASBANI
Egypt itself stopped the UN resolutions...it was a major obstacle to the UN Resolution calling for sending troops to Darfur under [the] UN. It postponed this resolution for months and months.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just one brief comment, Ahmed Diraige.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes, in my introduction, I mentioned the fact that we, the Third World, including the Arab World, we have not yet understood the idea of unity in diversity, and I also said that the issue of Darfur and the Sudan is very complex, because the Sudan is a country, the people of which are partly Arabs and partly non-Arabs, and in my view they have to live together, and if the Arabs only support the Arab section of the Sudanese population and another Arab supports another Arab, we'll always have a conflict.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. Alright. We're going to move on, Mr. Diraige, we're going to move on because we've got a lot of questions here. Lady in the second row, you've been waiting a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. My question is for the proposition. According to international law, it is stipulated that a country should deal with its international issues without foreign intervention. Therefore isn't it legitimate that Arab governments aren't helping?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you. Nadim Hasbani.
NADIM HASBANI
Thank you. Can you explain why you have 10,000 UN soldiers trying to protect peace in Southern Sudan, why you cannot have the same amount of UN soldiers trying to protect peace in West Sudan. What's the difference? Is South Sudan more privileged than West Sudan, or the South Sudanese people are more important so they deserve to live and the Westerners don't deserve to live? This is double standards, this is where the international law is not implemented. When the Sudanese government comes and tells you, 'I'm going to fight and resist Western invaders in Darfur that come under UN, but in the South, the 10,000 soldiers of UN are welcome to protect peace,' this is double standards, this has nothing to do with what the Sudanese government is saying. All that is needed is to protect the civilians, to protect people like you and me, to stop them from living in tents for years. They're been living in tents for five years.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let me bring in Zeid Al Sabban here.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Nadim, for me, I'm totally convinced about the importance of bringing security to the Darfurians and you know my position in this regard. About comparing the south and the west, the United Nations troops were introduced to the south of Sudan by agreement between the National Congress Party and the [SLM?] in Naivasha. This is.. we don't have the case here in Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
So in the meantime they just die?
ZEID AL SABBAN
No, no, no. We have another deal which is UNAMED - and here they are not only 10,000, they are 26,000 to go to Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
How many UNAMED soldiers are in Darfur today?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Today 7,000.
NADIM HASBANI
This 7,000 has been in Darfur since 2003/2004, correct? What have they done?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Just ask the distinguished Mr Diraige if 100,00 soldiers in Darfur can solve the problem. It's not about soldiers..
NADIM HASBANI
It's about protecting the civilians in Darfur.
ZEID AL SABBAN
It's more sophisticated.
NADIM HASBANI
What's so sophisticated about not allowing people to kill other people?
ZEID AL SABBAN
That's it, that's it - but it is much more than this, and you know, historically between 1874 and 1896 you know that this was much, much worse than what Darfur is witnessing now. At that time, in Darfur and you have here a lot of Darfurians..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Right. Lady in the fifth row, you've had your hand up for a while, yes, you. Thank you. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'd like to ask this question to Mr. Nadim. What political reasons do you think the Arab nations might have for not providing sufficient aid to ease the Darfur crisis? Thank you.
NADIM HASBANI
It's a very simple principle. It's been going on for 30 years. My dictatorship protects your dictatorship, that's the principle. Why? Because when you kill your people, you don't want me to come and ask, 'Why are you killing them?' Why? Because when I want to kill my people, I don't want you to come asking me what I'm doing with my people. It's that simple. It's unfortunately not more complicated than that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you buy that?
NADIM HASBANI
President Bashir was not elected. His regime was not elected. It's a dictatorship. It's not held accountable, that's the main problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you happy with that answer?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. The lady a little further along from you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. I have heard a lot of mention of money coming from all of you and it's probably the only set of numbers that you have given us that we can count on, so I'm asking about finance, and how you believe that because a country can sign a cheque, they're supporting or caring. Is that your definition of caring? Can money actually change mentalities and if those people actually supporting you financially, are they people that you can count on to save Darfur?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ambassador, would you like to answer that one?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Zeid Al Sabban. [Addressing Sirajuddin Hamid Yosouf] I don't know why you're shying away from money.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No, no. I want you to rephrase the question, please, so I can get a better grasp of it.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Can money change mentalities? Does it make people care?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, money is not everything. There is peace.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
That's all you've been mentioning.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Pardon?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
That's all you've been mentioning, that's the only support, it's all talk and no walk basically.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't need money, you're getting $4 billion a year in oil revenues these days, you don't need money, do you?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, given the root causes of the problems in Darfur ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You can afford to fund the peace-keeping yourself.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
...money plays a greater part because it is partly an economic problem. It is a competition between poor people, cattle herders and farmers over meagre resources, infrastructure is weak, there is no water, so if there is money, that would contribute heavily to the resolution of the problem. The Arabs, when they met in Khartoum last October, they pledged to dig 110 wells, but that's not enough. We are still looking forward [to] Arab governments, being the core of the OIC, and I said that in my introductory statement, still to yield and to provide more help.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ambassador, do you measure help from your fellow Arab states by the amount of money that they give you, they offer you? This is the basis of the question I think you're asking.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
OK. It isn't only the money. We receive money, we receive political support, we receive encouragement. The media in the Arab World interfered and corrected the record and straightened the record about the lies and the vicious circles of organisations like ICG and others who talk about Sudan. I mean, they just compile reports from everywhere and then they put it and print it nicely and distribute it all over the world.
NADIM HASBANI
Please, please...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ambassador, you've called his reports nonsense - let him reply.
NADIM HASBANI
Mr Ambassador Arabiya channel went and filmed those people. Let me justify the money, I'll come back. The money, because refugees in tents, you know, they live in nylon tents, what they need, why the money is needed, is for blankets, for food, for medicine, this is the basics. Why you are mentioning the money first? It's because first we have to let these refugees survive.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I understand the significance of the money, but I'm asking about how they care, how is that related to caring? You're talking about financial aid and that's totally different form.... Can you count on the people who are signing those cheques to save Darfur?
NADIM HASBANI
No, no, just to help people in Darfur survive.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please don't all talk at once, please.
AHMED DIRAIGE
There is a place for both, because money is needed, one, to alleviate the grievance of the people who are in the camps. It can be in kind or it can be in cash. Now, in cash, why should it be paid to the government, the government doesn't take it to the people - but your question is, is money enough? And you are right, money is not enough. The problem is not only money, it's a problem of integrity for the person, his self-respect, and the other things they need. And as I said, the problem of Darfur is very complex. It's a problem of the feeling of people that they're marginalised. They are not getting their fair share from the wealth of the nation, and they rebelled. They didn't rebel to get money, they wanted to get more services, to get development projects and to participate in the policy-making of the government.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ok, let me move on. Let me move on to another question...
AHMED DIRAIGE
So money cannot do this, you are absolutely right, but the money was necessary and one important thing, if you'll allow me...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very briefly, please, please..very briefly, just one point.
NADIM HASBANI
I'll tell you how Arab media helped you - I'll tell you how the Arab governments.. no, I insist, I have a documentary with me that was filmed in Darfur...
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No...ICG doesn't have anything...
NADIM HASBANI
It's on the website..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we just let him finish...
NADIM HASBANI
Let me tell you the story. It's called, the documentary filmed by Arabiya TV Channel, everybody here knows Arabiya TV Channel, it's called Jihad on Horseback. It was filmed in Darfur, in refugee camps, you can see the refugee camps, they are Arabs, they didn't lie. It was never aired. I have it in my hands, it was never aired because President Bashir called the cabinet of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and told him, 'Please, do not let this documentary go out - you know why? Because if you see the documentary, you and me will start crying when we see it.'
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
How do you prove that between President Bashir and King Abdullah - were you there?
NADIM HASBANI
It was on the Arabiya website, they said, 'We are facing the pressure not to air it.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just reply to what he asks. You're saying it's not true, you don't know whether it's true or not.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, let's give the audience an example. A few years ago, before the conclusion of the Naivasha Agreement, we used to hear documentaries about the slavery in Sudan.. We see people brought in a line chained and they were sold and money exchanged.
NADIM HASBANI
But that's a different subject.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No, no, no, please, please. There are so many documentaries like this. Now the agreement was signed and it's all open, nobody dared to come out and tell us where are those slaves.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Those what?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Slaves. They are making movies about slaves.
NADIM HASBANI
So you're saying the two million and a half refugees don't exist?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentlemen, please, please. We're going to have a question from a lady in the second row, please. And if you can kindly not all talk at the same time, I'd be awfully grateful.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. I would like to draw the panellists' attention to the role of the US in the whole conflict. It seems that the Arab governments have not been able to or have not been willing to help, generously help the Sudanese government, because they're allies with the US. How much truth is in this assertion?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nadim Hasbani, do you want to answer this?
NADIM HASBANI
Well, you know what happens is, the Sudanese government always tell you, this is a US conspiracy, they want to invade Darfur, they want to take our oil like they did in Iraq, etc. That's wrong, that's wrong, that's three times wrong, because what the US did in Iraq, you had the foreign element called the United States who came and invaded Iraq. In Darfur you have the local element, not a foreign one, called the Sudanese government who went and killed its own people. It's not about foreign invasion, it has nothing to do with the US. It's about a government killing its own people. It's your police here out in the street coming and killing you. What does the US have to do with that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let her come back on that.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The US has all of a sudden been interested in the national resources of Sudan, and this seems to be following up on what has happened in Iraq, so do we see Sudan as a next "Iraq" on the US agenda of war against terrorism?
NADIM HASBANI
Not at all. I don't know what the US sees there, but what I see there is refugees and people being killed. Still again, what does this have to do with the United States? It's an internal Sudanese matter where people killed each other, where African tribes and Arab tribes killed each other, and the Arab tribes were unfortunately funded and armed by the Sudanese government.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Excuse me Nadim, it's not Arab tribes killing African tribes.. it was never like this. It was some clans in Arab tribes... I have to return to the question because it is not enough, for the question that was posed two minutes ago.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, we can't keep going back to questions..
ZEID AL SABBAN
I will tell you why the Arabs are not seen in Darfur, because we don't have a branch, a very important branch in the civil society, the Arab civil society. Our Arab civil society is mainly, mainly a political one.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So whose fault is that?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I don't know.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK. Then we'll seek inspiration elsewhere. Gentleman on the front row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Logical statements need simple reasoning. Illogical statements need strong justification.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we have a question please?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Here is the question. How come that the government kills their own people? This is the first question. The other question..
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, please - Ambassador, would you like to take that question?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
This is a good question. How come a government can kill its own people? Would the government of Egypt kill the Egyptians and the government of Sudan kill the Sudanese and so forth?
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It is a statement, a statement that is said by people like ICG, by the opposition ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a question, do you want to answer it, Ambassador?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No government kills its own people.
NADIM HASBANI
Saddam Hussein killed his own people.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Saddam Hussein?
NADIM HASBANI
Yeah, wasn't he Arab? He killed his own people, in the north and in the south.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Are you sure of that?
NADIM HASBANI
Yes. In Sudan, is there the military force other than the Sudanese army who has Antonov planes to bomb villages?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Iraq is not Darfur, Nadim.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Who has the bombs?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
There is no comparison between Iraq and Sudan -
NADIM HASBANI
It's an Arab country.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Would you let me finish my statement - except in one way. According to the US policy, one minute on Iraq on the media, one minute on Darfur in the media is two minutes less on Iraq. It is an issue that is meant to distract the public opinion in the world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're not serious, are you Ambassador?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, I'm serious about this, yes. That's the issue, talk about Darfur because there is no issue in Darfur, then this is two minutes less on the issue of Iraq. The issue of Darfur is an internal issue in American politics. Why? Why isn't the issue of Gaza and the Israelis bombarding, killing the Palestinians every day became an internal issue of American politics, why? Ask yourself this question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I would like also to ask a question, why those rebels in Darfur carrying arms are not sitting [down] to negotiations?
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Ambassador, rather than have you answering questions, asking questions, we'll have the audience asking questions please. Lady in the third row. You, please. Lady next to you, sorry, lady next to you. She had her hand up longer.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. My question is directed at Mr. Nadim. How are the Arabs supposed to help and know about the Darfur crisis if the government is oppressing them, it's deceiving them through media and it's encouraging them to turn a blind eye on such issues, so what are we supposed to do?
NADIM HASBANI
There you just put your finger on the wound, that's the problem, that the Sudanese government succeeded in four years of compete media blackout not to allow the Arab people like you and me to know what's happening, and now they can have Mr Ambassador saying, 'Oh, nothing is happening,' - because when you want to try as a journalist to get a visa to go film in Darfur, you won't get the visa, you won't go there. You'll have the guided tour if you go there. You'll have the Intelligence walking with you, if you're filming there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what do you do?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Nadim, 2 million are crossing the borders every day, and you know who is now, while we are talking, who is in Darfur filming and ...it is so easy...
NADIM HASBANI
A correspondent was jailed, the Jazeera office was closed for one year, they didn't go because of that.
ZEID AL SABBAN
This is not the problem. What is happening in Darfur, we all know what is happening in Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
So something is happening in Darfur?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Of course.
NADIM HASBANI
Then we agree on something, I'm very happy about that.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Of course, of course.
NADIM HASBANI
Because Mr. Ambassador said nothing is happening - only 9,000 people killed, only 9,000 people killed.
ZEID AL SABBAN
He didn't say nothing is happening. Don't put words in his mouth...
NADIM HASBANI
He did say 9,000!
ZEID AL SABBAN
This is another story.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's part of the same story.
ZEID AL SABBAN
In Darfur, there is a civil war and all of us, we know it - and it was the responsibility of the League of Arab States to say what is happening, and we did that, we did our report.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Zeid Al Sabban, thank you very much.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
One last point. There is free access to Darfur... Zeid [pointing at Nadim Hasbani], you can go...[inaudible]
NADIM HASBANI
My visa was rejected Mr Ambassador- please, which access? My visa was rejected, in a very rude way it was rejected..
[inaudible]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we please, could we please have one more question? Lady in the second row, you please. Can we get the microphone?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening, everyone. Since the beginning of this, let's say debate, you were saying, Mr. Nadim, that there is no media, the government, the Sudanese government is not providing any media, so no-one knows what's going on there? Well, let me tell you something. How come, how are you saying so, if we are all sitting down here today and knowing exactly what's going on, how can you tell that? Apparently you yourself know a lot, I'm telling you a lot about this, you've been talking since the beginning, doing a great job, so apparently yes, there is media and the media is working properly. Thank you very much.
NADIM HASBANI
There are two media we're talking about. We're talking about Arab media and Western media. Western media, what they did, they go illegally through Chad, they go in, they film, they go out. Sometimes they are arrested because they went in illegally. Arab media is not allowed to go in. Did you watch anything, any footage on refugees in Darfur on the Arab channels? I haven't. It's very hard to find some. They don't exist. You have... they report on what's happening in the UN about Darfur.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let her come back to you, she just wants to make a point.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The point is knowing about the issue, right?
NADIM HASBANI
Through Western media. But in the Arab World not everybody knows English.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But Arabs do know.
NADIM HASBANI
Sure, but not everybody, only the elite. The normal people, the man in the street, doesn't know about it because they don't ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
There you go again, you're saying they do not know about it. How come? They know, whether it's from the Arab or from the Western media, they know.
NADIM HASBANI
They do know from the Western media, we agree.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you, they do know, so we can take an action, Arabs can take an action.
NADIM HASBANI
Hopefully, I really hope so. Back to Top | |
