30May2006 - Transcript


		'This House believes the family is a major obstacle to reform in the Arab world' Introduction Hayfa Matar Ibrahim Al-Khulaifi Mohammad Al Rumaihi Islah Jad Audience Vote Result


		TIM SEBASTIAN Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening and welcome to this, the last in our current series of Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. As the Arab world undergoes profound change, what is happening to the Arab family? Is it assisting those changes or is it stuck in the past and forcing behaviour that impedes the development of societies around it? That's the question we're debating here tonight and our motion goes to the heart of it. This House believes that the family is a major obstacle to reform in the Arab world. Well, speaking for the motion Hayfa Matar, a former investment banker and now Second Secretary in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Bahrain. She's about to take up a post at the United Nations. With her, Dr Mohammad Al Rumaihi, he's professor of political sociology at Kuwait University. He's been an adviser to both government and the private sector. He's also an expert on social change in the Gulf and the author of more than 20 books. Against the motion is Dr Ibrahim Al-Khulaifi, he was the first head of the Supreme Council for Education in Kuwait, he appears regularly on television and is a frequent lecturer on education, psychology and social reform. And with him is Dr Islah Jad, lecturer on gender issues and politics at Birzeit University in West Bank and also a founding member of their Women's Studies Programme. She's advised several Palestinian government departments on gender rights and awareness. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. Back to Top
		TIM SEBASTIAN So now let me invite Hayfa Matar to speak first for the motion. HAYFA MATAR Thank you Tim. Basically I'd like to start with defining reform. It's a movement to improve development both socially and politically. The main premise behind reform is that people have to be receptive. There's an attempt, an intent, for freedom to be able to think critically, to accept change. Family clearly stands against this in the Arab world. What does reform mean to all of you, as students that are planning on getting jobs? There are certain jobs that your family will not allow you to attain. Basically family in the Arab world is the most important agency of socialisation. It's a patriarchal society where the gender roles are very clearly defined and males are much more dominant within the society and they're quite, in terms of decision making, they tend to be authoritarian in nature, where there's not much leeway to think critically, to engage in a discussion. The identity of the individual is very much undermined. It's a collective, a society with a collective identity. A success if an individual becomes a success; the family, a failure therefore, if an individual is a failure. That emanates throughout the whole family, which gives a tremendous amount of pressure on an individual to actually, to try new things. So, essentially things are stifled. Creativity is stifled; you tend not to be able to really give out your own opinions. Within the family structure a lot of things are internalised. Problems, psychological problems, child abuse etc. is confined within family constraints. These are issues that should be dealt with socially. They are dealt with socially elsewhere in the world and it allows, it doesn't allow people to talk intimately with their friends, there's no room really for growth. What are the consequences of this politically? Politically you tend to have an allegiance, first to your family and then the state becomes the final, you pay tribute to the state finally. So in terms of that, some of our countries have parliaments, you tend to elect people that are close within the family and you neglect merit, you neglect the true interests of your country. Economically as well; families are very much self-sufficient. There's no real room for, they don't specialise, there's hardly any research and development. There is no risk, there's no exchange, there's no risk taking, there's no entrepreneurship. You hardly see any sense of small, medium enterprises. Things become far more inefficient because of that. We don't have, most of the Arab world doesn't have anything to export to the international world. We tend to have large families that are conglomerates and if you're from a certain family you can't work for a different family. So essentially, all of these problems they tend to hinder from economic development. There's inefficiency, there's a lack of freedom for women, there's a lack of freedom to really give back to society as much as you can. Thank you. TIM SEBASTIAN Hayfa Matar, thank you very much indeed. You talk about people not being allowed by their families to take certain jobs. Have you ever been stopped from taking a job by your family? HAYFA MATAR Yes, for a while I was contemplating fashion design and my parents weren't too keen on that. They didn't stop me per se, but they discouraged me, very much so. TIM SEBASTIAN That doesn't mean it was a great obstacle. You've been an investment banker, you've travelled, you're about to go to the United Nations, you're travelling there. Basically you've told your parents what you want to do. HAYFA MATAR No not really. I mean they were, essentially they had a very clear path. Investment banking is something very highly regarded in the Arab world. Now if I tell them I want to do something within the arts, TIM SEBASTIAN ...so you feel your prospects have been blighted by your family? HAYFA MATAR Most definitely IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI It is like this all over the world, and all over the Arab world. TIM SEBASTIAN I just wanted to finish, if I may with Hayfa Matar. The situation of women is changing drastically, isn't it? A Bahrain University Study which was published in 2003 found that women in the Gulf aged between 25 and 44 accounted for almost 50% of the economic activity of their country. So they're almost half the economic activity, that's getting close to equality isn't it? HAYFA MATAR No but, I mean in terms of education, in terms of family law, can women... TIM SEBASTIAN In terms of what they're producing for the economy. HAYFA MATAR But they're not.... TIM SEBASTIAN The study from Bahrain University, your own country. HAYFA MATAR I mean I do agree the literacy rates for women have increased, the participation has increased. But there are clear problems with family laws with... TIM SEBASTIAN But they're changing, it says women can increasingly play different roles of mother and breadwinner without having to confront the existing cultural systems which appears from the outside as a system that deprives women of their rights. So that's changing as well. HAYFA MATAR We're talking fundamentally within, do women actually raise their children in a way that they stimulate and foster decision making. That's fundamentally the question? If you're, the productivity comes from how your raise your children and I don't feel like they're getting the right education. TIM SEBASTIAN But you'll admit there's change, change is taking place? HAYFA MATAR Yes of course there is. TIM SEBASTIAN There are some quite drastic changes. Thank you very much indeed. Back to Top

		TIM SEBASTIAN Now let me call on please, Dr Ibrahim Al-Rumaihi to speak against the motion. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Thank you Tim, and thank you for attending this very important issue. I believe families are part of an overwhelming social, political system and they deliver, when you have your own prophesies about them, they deliver. When you put obstacles, they deliver. Families were used and abused by our social political systems, religious systems, and even the colonial powers have used them to empower some families to rule this country, especially, sorry this region of the world. So what I see, families are at a loss within the whole system; cars within an avenue and you can never blame a car or a car driver for a bad traffic system. Cars will act upon the facilities that you provide for them. China is a example of how leadership can, what can they do about families, 1 billion of the nation, 1 billion have been converted from quantity, from a sleeping giant to an active giant that is embracing everyone in the world and showing an example of how leadership can act to empower the blossoming of society, whether they are families, tribes or what have you. I believe that families are a solution, industries especially, families are saving the welfare systems because families are taking care of their weak members of themselves, by which is the second sin after disbelieving in doctrine according to the region, to the many religions, is to abuse family or to abuse the parents. I believe we can invest in families, we can stop blaming them, start empowering them and I'm proud to be a member of a poor family that invested in nine children, and all of them were empowered to take posts although the parents were illiterate. TIM SEBASTIAN Mohammed Al-Khulaifi, thank you very much indeed. I'm not sure that China's such a great example of a state looking after families, where women are subjected to forcible abortions if they have more than one child. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI That's their choice. TIM SEBASTIAN That's their choice? Hardly a great example for the Arab world. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI No I mean the choice of Chinese is to kill the children because they believe that girls are not as productive as boys. TIM SEBASTIAN But Dr Khulaifi, if families are not an obstacle to reform why are more and more people in the Arab world choosing to stay single? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI I doubt these statistics; you need to provide evidence for this. TIM SEBASTIAN I'll give you copies of this. Perfectly respectable studies. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI I can give you piles of statistics showing that marriage is still the case in this society. TIM SEBASTIAN One in two adult Arab women can't read or write. It doesn't say that the families doing a particularly good job, does it? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Thank God, I mean because 20 years ago one out of three can read so our statistics are showing significant development in this aspect. TIM SEBASTIAN Look at nepotism in the family. I want to read you what one Jordanian blogger put on his web. "Any public official who does not recruit his family members, or provide services to them is considered weak and dishonest while any official who practices nepotism is considered strong and trustworthy". How are you going to change that system? That's a block on reform, isn't it? Even your colleague is nodding her head, or did I mistake you? ISLAH JAD Nepotism is everywhere, even in the West, I mean, look George Bush family, for example. What can we call this, isn't it nepotism too? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Families can invest in their heritage, they can give the children the choice to build up what they have. TIM SEBASTIAN Families are helping society, or helping themselves? It seems through nepotism they're helping themselves. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Actually it's a mutual benefit. Kids have their choices, they can say whether they want to choose this or not. Take the Royal family, for example, in Britain, take the Bush family, take Royal families everywhere. Even the actors will offer their kids choices whether to invest in their parent's heritage, or to get away and choose their life, whether it's West or East. People will look at their interests, whatever the case TIM SEBASTIAN Thank you very much indeed. Back to Top

		TIM SEBASTIAN Now may we please call on Mohammad Al Rumaihi to speak for the motion? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I do support the motion. It's very obvious and any one of us with the right mind will support it, I'm just amazed and surprised how our colleague Dr Ibrahim compared cars to the human beings, and the first analogy I have heard in my 35 years teaching. And of course he went to say something on China, and China is an example for the family, I wonder, and I heard the words that shocked me, killing children, I mean who said that we want to kill our children and follow the Chinese example, I wonder. To go to the main points, I do believe sincerely that family, Arab families and Arabic tribes are opposing directly and in opposition to their development and to modernity. And because of that one of our recent problems, is because what is the teaching of the family and society of a whole and what we have in global system. This was in fact breeding fundamentalism. But let me say something of what we have in hand. I have a piece of information here which amazes me, this is a lady, her name is Leila Abouzeid. I wonder if anyone has heard of her. She is a story writer, she is a novelist from Morocco, Morocco is an open society. And she wrote a novel, the title of that novel is the Year of Elephant, trying to describe what's going on with a woman in Moroccan society. And in her interview, and I won't go into details of this novel, but the article is saying, and it's been translated into English and French and is on the way to being translated into German. But this is not the point, what she says that she couldn't write to this novel until my father died. That means her father was in fact a major obstacle for her to do this very good piece which has been translated into many languages. So definitely families and tribe connections and social, politically and other areas, and this is hindering our development in this part of the world, the Gulf area and of course within the Arabs. I can give you a number of examples, not mentioning the cars, of course, to go on and she describes what kind of obstacles we do have. TIM SEBASTIAN Alright, Dr Rumaihi, thank you very much indeed. One in five people in this region live on $2 a day, or less, what would they do without their family support? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI This is true, I don't know what they do if they have family support, this is self-defeating sort of argument. TIM SEBASTIAN Well families are keeping them alive, they're not blocking their progress. They're keeping them alive. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI If they live off $1 a day, that means their family not supporting enough. TIM SEBASTIAN It's giving them something, where would they get anything else. What other support structures are there in these countries, apart from family and tribe? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI There is no support, I don't think... TIM SEBASTIAN So the families not exactly standing in the way of progress. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI We don't have evidence, scientific evidence to say that those have been supported by families. TIM SEBASTIAN Well who else is supporting them? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI One, they are poor, they've only one dollar a day, so what kind of support do they have? TIM SEBASTIAN This is also a region which is beset by hatred, it's beset by divisions, it's what the late King called a very rough neighbourhood without the protection of the family and the tribe, what do you make of it? You say they're blocking progress. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Not necessarily, I mean you are assuming that most people are paid by their families. TIM SEBASTIAN I wasn't saying paying but there is economic assistance from the families to a large number of people. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI What do you mean by large? TIM SEBASTIAN A high percentage. These people, one in five who are living on $2 a day. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI But how do you know that those people are supported by their families, I wonder? TIM SEBASTIAN Who else, there's nobody else is there? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Because they are poor and they have nothing to do. I mean that's why you see those beggars all around our streets and big cities, that's why you see those slums, people live in the slums in Cairo and other places TIM SEBASTIAN So you blame the family for lack of progress? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Yes of course. TIM SEBASTIAN You let the State off the hook? You let the governments off the hook, the autocratic governments of this region? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Basically if we had a good sort of family support probably would get out of these problems. TIM SEBASTIAN So you do need the families for something. Dr Al Rumaihi, thank you very much indeed. Back to Top

		TIM SEBASTIAN Could I please ask Dr Islah Jad to speak against the motion? ISLAH JAD Absolutely I disagree with the motion of the House for many reasons. First of all, we have to see our family as a growing, developing entity. And it's not a fixed, stagnant, a dying or decaying entity. It is affected by many factors in the society with political, social, economic and other things. So I don't see that the family is a hindrance or an obstacle in the face of the growing and developing of the individual, in particular for women in our country. And I will say why, first of all I'm not convinced at all that Dr Hayfa is that oppressed woman, who can not really make her way through life. She is a glamorous, prosperous woman, self-assertive, she's so assertive and she is well expressing herself and I think this is the product of her family, not only her wish to make her future in life. And in the same way I'm not convinced at all with the argument of Dr Al Rumaihi, especially when he talks about modernity, what does it mean modernity for example. What does it mean modernity? If modernity means that if you disagree or did not like the choice of your child you throw your child in the street, I don't think this is modernity, especially as you did not specify what does it mean. And I am afraid to hear that this kind of discourse might in fact, you know, attract some crazy leaders in the world who think that they are, you know, driven by God's will to develop and to modernise this region and to liberate the very oppressed women in these regions. So I am sorry to say that I am not convinced by your argument at all. Now I will say why I'm not convinced because first of all, I will talk about myself. I am a child born in a family of 10 children, seven girls and three boys. My father and my mother said that number one priority for the family is to educate girls first. Why? Because in the first, in any problems in the future we have to arm these girls, like a weapon, to prepare the future. And the weapon was our education. Seven girls all graduates, graduated from the best universities, in the world, not only from Egypt where I was born, and the same with my own two daughters, too. So other women are educated, Arab women we see them more and more in parliament, in ministry, in business, in media, on TV, everywhere they are invading. Vacant and you know, well receiving space for them. One word about patriarchy, patriarchy is not an Arab phenomena, it's everywhere in the world. In the West we have patriarchy too, we have oppressed women too, but here we are never thrown, if we are the weak member in our family, to the street, if I am a handicapped or an old woman or if I have problem in my family, I'm always protected and helped and supported by my family. TIM SEBASTIAN Thank you, I'm going to give you a few questions and then I'm going to throw it open to the audience, so please have your questions ready. Dr Islah Jad you know very well, as a teacher in the University of the West Bank that women, some women are restricted from studying abroad where they want to go. You know this for a fact don't you? ISLAH JAD Yes. TIM SEBASTIAN The families are acting as a block on the ambitions of a number of women under your care, this is fact, isn't it? ISLAH JAD Yes, but.. TIM SEBASTIAN It's not a yes but, is it, it's either yes or no. ISLAH JAD Because maybe I have 10 examples of women, or girls that have been obstructed by their families to go abroad but I could give you hundreds and thousands of examples of women who are following their studies abroad... TIM SEBASTIAN But there are still families that are blocking the ambitions of their children. Let's talk about a patriarchal system, let's use the term that the UN Arab Human Development Report used in 2003 when it talked about an authoritarian and overprotected style of child rearing within the Arab family that adversely affects children's independence, self-confidence and social efficiency. It exists; this report was compiled by Arab experts. ISLAH JAD I agree with some of their say, but I disagree with the philosophy of the report because the philosophy of that report... TIM SEBASTIAN Never mind the philosophy, what about the point of the... ISLAH JAD The philosophy of Dr Rumaihi which is liberalism, I disagree with liberalism... TIM SEBASTIAN Never mind the philosophy, what about the authoritarian and overprotective style of child rearing? ISLAH JAD You know it's exactly as generalising if you have... TIM SEBASTIAN That's not generalising, it's giving us a reason why they said the Arab world is missing the path to the future... ISLAH JAD If a father is abusing, you know, his kids or child in the West, you can not say that the Western family is abusive family... TIM SEBASTIAN We're not talking about the Western family, we're talking about the situation in the Arab world characterised by Arab experts for the United Nations. You would like to talk about philosophy you're not interested in talking about the details, authoritarian and overprotective style of child rearing... ISLAH JAD The best experts in the world are the people who raise their kids, not the people who write about the people who raise their kids TIM SEBASTIAN Alright, Dr Islah Jad, thank you very much indeed. Back to Top

		TIM SEBASTIAN Now I'm going to take our questions please from the audience. Let me just remind you of the motion. 'This House believes that the family is a major obstacle to progress in the Arab world.' You sir. Your question, could you stand up please? AUDIENCE Q (M) I would like to say that your motion is very vague, I mean which family, is it the family in the rural areas or the urban areas, they are both different... TIM SEBASTIAN Instead of attacking the motion could we have a question please to one or either of the teams? AUDIENCE Q (M) My question is to the lady here, your family obviously did not stand in your way, maybe objected to a discipline you wanted to pursue. So how is that different from the, let's say a family in Brooklyn that wants its daughter to be a doctor, I mean it's not really exclusive to the Arab world. HAYFA MATAR No it's not, but it's still a progress to be able, it's still an obstacle, to allow yourself to completely be free in terms of the way you want to think AUDIENCE Q (M) Is it exclusive to this region? HAYFA MATAR Who is completely free in the world? To allow yourself to make certain opinions but still, yes I do agree that I was, there were definitely opportunities that I could not take because of certain, I would say certain points that wouldn't ... TIM SEBASTIAN So objections from the family, yes, on what grounds did they object? HAYFA MATAR On what grounds? On grounds that this is social stigma. There are certain, for example in the arts, there's no appreciation for arts in the Arab world, in respect to... AUDIENCE Q (M) How can you say that, we have Arab artists, painters, sculptors. IBRAHAM AL-KHULAIFI I look at my elderly, the first born boy, I asked him kindly not to go to the United States because I need him in my business and I offered him something, I offered him a car by the way. And he accepted. So here is a boy... TIM SEBASTIAN You bought him off, didn't you? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Yes, was handed by a kind father, who put on the table the deal, I want you to stay here because I believe our universities are OK for your graduate studies, you can go abroad and by the way even for his graduate studies he chose Kuwait because he believed that he save time, money and effort, by doing business and... TIM SEBASTIAN OK, you bought him off, you bought him off. There's a gentleman in the second row. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI I was being a kind father; you've not to blame me for being a kind, protective father. TIM SEBASTIAN Gentleman in the second row. AUDIENCE Q (M) Thank you. You're talking about family, you're talking about women. We want to see our Arab woman, in the Arab world working in factories and workshops. What they are doing now in the Arab world, they're using them as decorations, some conferences, seminars, that is not empowering woman... TIM SEBASTIAN Can I have your question please? AUDIENCE Q (M) My question, children, why children are being cheated, they are being given an education which is poor in English, mathematics, physics, chemistry. What kind of family are they going to make? We're having the highest divorce in the world, but when we sit in conferences we are saying we are perfect? TIM SEBASTIAN Ok, let me, we have a teacher here, let her please answer the question. AUIDENCE A (M) OK my question, why can't we have co-education in our education system where boys and girls can meet together and can make a family together. TIM SEBASTIAN Thank you. We're going to have an answer now. ISLAH JAD But who said that co-education is the best recipe for better education for girls or boys. Now you have in the West that people, educators are calling for separate schools for girls and boys. And this side, we do have some co-education schools in our area. In the kindergarten, elementary schools etc. and in most, for your knowledge, in most of the rural areas because of the lack of resources and limited resources for rural people, government run on daily basis, co-education schools. AUDIENCE Q (M) But children are being brainwashed they are being dictated to, by the family, by the teachers, there's such a collapse in the family system, its cause by poor education. TIM SEBASTIAN We're going to move on to a generalisation, in the front row, someone else please? AUDIENCE A (M) My question is for Miss Hayfa. My question is; when your family was against work, against some particular job, don't you think at that time they were absolutely right? Today, are you accepting your children to see reality TV like Star Academy and Superstar or not, when they grow up will you let them see it? HAYFA MATAR Yes in terms of that, I think families should allow their children to make certain choices. They will come around, I mean I had certain disciplines that I wanted to pursue for a while, and I do believe that I'm very happy where I am now, but it was my own decision. You need to have the leeway, you need to have families that are able to do things in a much more decision making, where you engage your children, into pursuing them. And that's the problem, the problem is most families here, they clearly define what you're capable, what's available for you to pursue and what isn't, and that's the point. TIM SEBASTIAN OK. If you stand up we'll get the microphone to you more easily. AUDIENCE Q (F) I'd like to talk about two points here. TIM SEBASTIAN Could we just have one question, there are a lot of people with questions, so could we just have one question? AUDIENCE Q (F) I think people in the Arab world find it hard to draw a clear distinction between what's taboo and what's Islamicly forbidden. And I think also there is a lot of confusion between what's tradition, customs and benefits, and religious teachings and beliefs. TIM SEBASTIAN OK you got your two points in, let's have a question. AUDIENCE Q (F) OK, I think the Arab family is fine, morally and intellectually. The only problem is that they need at the civil level and state level, they need to develop certain skills, such as time management, money management, literacy skills, I mean.. TIM SEBASTIAN OK, I understand, but we can't take everything. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I can see you after and find out what your other question is, but I'll take this one word of your question, religion. Religion is very broad thing and people, it's like blind people describing an elephant, everybody describing exactly what they feel. I came from Kuwait and we had a fight, a very long fight, to allow woman voting in parliament. And there was a good number of MPs opposing this notion on religious grounds. Immediately, when woman had the power to vote, just exactly those people who were a few months ago, that this is religiously banned, they have formed their communities from women so see how they change, this is one. This second I want to introduce other things, the role woman in our society is based on what the family has dictated on them and let's take one example only, the arranged marriages. And I have some statistics that over in Kuwait, for instance, the married woman within the family over 50 years is about 53 percent. And do you know what these 53 percent do to our development, they later on had children with the blood diseases. So instead of having a healthy good child, if you ask those families will you please allow your daughter to be married with somebody else outside the family, they will resist it. You know that and I know that. TIM SEBASTIAN OK, can we go to a question, lady towards the back please. AUDIENCE Q (F) OK, my question is to the speakers speaking against the motion. Do you think the main sponsors of reforms in the Arab world will allow reforms to take place, especially after we have Iran in the present day? TIM SEBASTIAN Is this question related to the family really, I think that's what we're talking about. Which is really the family, rather than reforms. AUDIENCE Q (F) Most of the countries in the Arab world are led by families, by Royal families, when the kinship is passed on to the son, and then their sons, now if we have to transfer that into reforms, to more democratic system, will the sponsors of reforms in the Middle East and Arab world allow that to happen? ISLAH JAD No, I don't think so, and your question is absolutely right, even though Tim didn't like it. I think the whole deal of reform is a dubious one, and it's not really serious or moral call and I think the kind of reform they wish is the kind of reform that will realise the Western interest in our area. It is not really the kind of reform we, the people wish for ourselves. It means that to put an end to the authoritarian regimes, the regimes in our area and to open up space, a real space for reform, all levels, but unfortunately what we are seeing now is a kind of pull up, you know, not only because of the family, because of the Western support, not because of the family, the family is protecting the individual and it's members from the corrupt regimes in our areas MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Let's get the motion out and we should talk very clearly, the political systems in our countries are family based systems. It's not just the monarchy, even a republic as we can see in so many places.... TIM SEBASTIAN That's the point. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI That's the system that's abusing family. That's what you're saying. It's not the family; it's those who are manipulating family. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I do think that if you look to the cabinet, especially in the area, and probably some other places you will find that half of the cabinet are family related, probably without any training, without any background. There is a very good study by an Egyptian lady, a few years ago, looked to the connection between Ministers and she found that most of them are family related. So this is the idea. Even with our system the family there is playing very important role to hand over. TIM SEBASTIAN Let me just go back to the questioner again, what do you feel about the family is blocking, these powerful families? AUDIENCE Q (F) I personally feel that it's blocking because, let's consider Qatar at the moment. 40% of the parliamentarians are, the ministers are voting for by democratic means, 60% are chosen by the Emir so you can see that the preferences coming up there, which kind of disturbs me because you see talent from other locals and then you have a biased standard. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Even those 40 would have been elected by people, probably you'll find there is a family and tribal connection. TIM SEBASTIAN Can you answer the question relating to our point? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI I have good news. OK, families are subject to reform and they can, they can deliver when you believe in them. Let me tell you quarter of a century ago, when I started training people, training families, I needed to advertise several times to get 10 people. Now without advertisement I can have a full house of men and women who want tools to raise their families better. People are willing to change. When the opinion leaders take their roles, when the political leaders take their roles, people will deliver. People need to be led to the right path, OK, they like to be led. TIM SEBASTIAN Gentleman in the fourth row. AUDIENCE Q (M) First of all I just wanted to say that, my question is for the people for the motion. I just want to say that your data, your statistics are out of date, because what you're saying is your generation is totally different than ours. So if you go and look for the new statistics you probably going to see lots of women, lots of men and women that are equal, they can go and, you know, explore the world, they can go study, they can go to the US to study or they can stay here. So, saying that I just want, this is just a point, my question would be.. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I don't know how to take, do you know that women are deprived from even driving cars in some other countries? AUDIENCE Q (M) No, this is particular in one state, this is not a general statement. MOHAMMAN AL RUMAIHI Yes, I think we come from two different generations, Hayfa is probably... ISLAH JAD Younger than you... MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Much younger than me. But we both agree with this motion, because I have been teaching for a many good years at Kuwait University and usually I ask my students, mostly girls, are you Muslims and they say yes, are Muslims equal, they will say yes. I know of course the families and clans, and I pick one of them, and I say would you like to marry X person from different sect, from different type, she said no sorry, this is something else. So this is how it is, although you will find the face of people is moving around, but now, even in our schools Kuwait University is segregated education... TIM SEBASTIAN You're looking puzzled, you're not accepting... AUDIENCE Q (M) Specifics, we're only talking about Kuwait, we're not talking about the whole Arab world. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I wonder if you know somebody called Sayed Yassin, he is to everybody else, is a very well known sociologist and if you go back to his article in the newspaper a few months ago, after the elections in Egypt and he said exactly that this is a tribal election, in Egypt, it's not in Kuwait, not in Qatar.. AUDIENCE Q (M) We're talking about families; we're not talking about elections and governments. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI No, I'm referring to the tribal system in our society. Tribes and families, this is the point. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Do you blame family for the political system, who's overwhelming the other, who's abusing families? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I really am against this term, because I have heard this many times. It is not exclusive to us, look to what is happening in the West, we have to blame the West. This is not the issue; the issue here is the morals and values in our society, in our families, hindering our development. TIM SEBASTIAN OK, take a question please from the lady in the second row. AUDIENCE Q (F) I have a question for the opposition team, I just want you to justify why are you arguing against the family and treating it as an obstacle, instead of trying to strengthen the family ties that have them loosen up through the decades? So instead of strengthening those ties you are just treating it as an obstacle and you want to disregard them, and how qualified are the youth today to make their own choices and their own decisions when they've been brought up by corrupt media and corrupt friends, instead of taking the wisdom and experience from their parents and from their families, instead of doing that you want to disregard the family as a total obstacle and just view the youth the way they are? TIM SEBASTIAN Can I just ask you, your family has never stood in your way of anything you wanted to do? AUDIENCE Q (F) No TIM SEBASTIAN Would they stand in your way whoever you wanted to marry? AUDIENCE Q (F) No, it's my choice, they're giving me the choice, they will advise me... HAYFA MATAR I basically think families, we need to educate family in order for them to stand against the problems of reform, that's fundamentally the problem. The problem is they are not in the right environment; they're not inducing the right message. TIM SEBASTIAN She was saying her family is pretty permission, not standing in her way. AUDIENCE Q (F) They will not encourage me, or discourage me, they will give me advice, but the final, they've brought me up to make my own decisions, they're there for advice, they're there to support me if they see me going the wrong way or making the wrong decision, they'll talk to me about it, they'll give me advice. Other than that, they will support me in the decision that I'm going to make, they're trusting me and they trust that I'm a person, I'm sane, I can make some good decisions and my conscience is alive. TIM SEBASTIAN But do you think that's indicative across the board? Do you see that with all your friends as well? AUDIENCE Q (F) Most of my friends who are in the same kind of education or mentality, or have shown their parents that they are able to take responsibly and take responsibly for their actions and make the right decisions at the right time, then yes they've got the same support from their families. TIM SEBASTIAN Right, we're going to take a question from the gentleman at the back, if you could stand up sir. AUDIENCE Q (M) My question is to Hayfa, you're blaming your parents because you said they blocked your way, you want to be a fashion designer and they did not allow it, I believe if you have a dream to make it true, you have to fight for it, you have to show that you deserve to be this thing. It's not just your parents say no, OK give up let's be something else. But myself, after I finished my high school, my parents convince me to go to Qatar University but I didn't because I knew my way, my career was somewhere else, and I did it. So you have to fight, you have to be something. TIM SEBASTIAN No consequences for you, from your family? AUDIENCE Q (M) They tried to make me join Qatar University but I didn't, because I realised that university was not giving me the skills or education that I'm looking for, so I couldn't, I just wait until I have my chance, and I complete my study now and am working in one of the best companies in the world. So you have to be something, you have to improve. HAYFA MATAR I have a question to ask you, now if you wanted to work for a specific business, for example a completely different family, a completely independent family from yours, would you be able to? AUDIENCE Q (M) Yes sure, why not? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Family is a dynamic system, and every situation for smart people should be win/win situation. When parents insist on something, whether the child is a boy or a girl, he should use his ways to win his case. So this is everywhere in the world, families teach discipline. There is a book, it's called Teaching Kids Responsibility, the first thing to teach them, according to this book, it's by an American couple, is to be obedient. You know that's an ugly word. TIM SEBASTIAN Ok, Dr Jad wanted to come in. ISLAH JAD Yes, I have one comment on what Dr Rumaihi said that you know that in his university, when he asked the female students about if she want to marry a person from his clan, she said no. Of course she would say no because class division is everywhere in the world. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I'm not saying class. ISLAH JAD It is about class. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI Social. ISLAH JAD Social is class, social structure, what does it mean social? Dr Hayfa when you mentioned something about "we" have to educate families, who are "we", you know. HAYFA MATAR Now I want to say that I'm not marginalising the role of government or the role of civil society, to the contrary, there are intervention programmes I know even in Bahrain, there's a mother child education programme that actually does tremendous work with families, in terms of empowering women, in terms of raising children that are from very, very poor families. And they work with the mothers to teach them the right skills that they can pass on to their children, that don't have the right to pre-schooling. I'm not undermining that, I'm just saying right now, presently the family structure needs a lot of help. TIM SEBASTIAN Right, we're going to go to a question in the front row, here, lady in the front row. AUDIENCE Q (F) A question for all the speakers, do you think that education affects the new generations and makes them more aware of the future, despite the family's opinion? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Of course, and I believe that the new generation should be taught that you have to make a balance between individuality and your family. One doesn't need to take the advantage over the over. It should be balanced because those societies who believe that individuality has been increased on the cost of the family they have lost. And for those societies who increase the family, on the expense of the individual they are lost. So we need, I think, we are reaching a stage at this region where both parties know exactly, know what is the important of the other, and I believe that the future has shown us... TIM SEBASTIAN Let me just ask the question, is education making you question family values, your family values, the way your family does things? AUDIENCE Q (F) In our society I could consider that my family is different than other families, because since we were children we were given the choice to do whatever we want, to achieve our aims and goals to go forward for what we're fighting for. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI The majority is not? AUDIENCE Q (F) The majority is not. TIM SEBASTIAN Do you feel that your family has held you back? AUDIENCE Q (F) No, my cousin has had a lot of experience, in that her father doesn't let her do a lot of things and she's got quite a lot of physiological problems so it affects children in bad ways. Yes, basically she doesn't have anyone to talk to about this because the people who surround her in her family are all of the same view, and you have to tackle the problem of force in the family, we've had a lot of positive examples, but we have to have negative ones. We have to realise that the people who are suppressed don't speak up because they're scared of the people around them. ISLAH JAD I followed a work shop in the United States on how do deal with domestic violence, based on the experience of domestic violence in the United States... TIM SEBASTIAN We're not talking about the United States... ISLAH JAD When I followed this workshop I realised that they had a tremendous level of support systems run by the state and many organisations of civil society, but in our area we need such kind of support, we need such kind of orientation from the state to provide services, and to reform the law to protect the person in the case of abuse from the family. But we cannot generalise that the Arab family is a place for domestic violence. AUDIENCE Q (F) I'm not talking about violence or abuse, I'm talking about forcing them to take certain paths in life, and also they don't give them the opportunity or the room to make mistakes for themselves. No matter how much you tell people, oh I've learnt this in my life, take it from my experience, children don't listen they have to have those experiences for themselves in order to experience, get the wisdom from it. ISLAH JAD Well you will find some cases like this, but this is not because it is an Arab family per se, I mean you can find many abusive families all over the world and you can find authoritarian parents all over the world. HAYFA MATAR Can I add something to that? Basically what I see is that, who talks about this issues, child abuse for example. Mostly within family confinements you don't have support groups that allow you to discuss these issues beyond these borders, so that's a serious problem. If I was abused, I wouldn't be able to talk to my friend, to take a stance per se, I would have to internalise it within my family and then I'd feel alienated from society. TIM SEBASTIAN Gentleman in the second row please. AUDIENCE Q (M) What do we mean by reform, I want to ask, I agree that there is two types of progress, good progress and bad progress with bad side effects, so an example of good progress would be the economy based on marriage rather than kinship and families should stop being overprotective, but progress with bad side effects is that some institutions would give children protection to be, so that they can learn discipline from their parents and you'd find them not respecting their parents. TIM SEBASTIAN Can we have a question please? AUDIENCE Q (M) Yes, the question is that, what's the ideal scenario for the ideal reform of the family? I mean we don't want people to after 18 not to call their parents anymore and move to another city, we don't want reform where families never stick together, we don't want a reform where... TIM SEBASTIAN OK, let's ask Dr Rumaihi what he wants. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I don't know, within our culture, the people will say something and basically they do something else, so we have so many examples here, what you're talking about exactly for this motion, is that the values and the system within our own families is hindering our development... AUDIENCE Q (M) What's an ideal scenario for reform? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I'm coming to that. The ideal scenario is that we should have a society based on other values, like the rule of law, freedom of speech, women's laws, to how we treat our women... TIM SEBASTIAN Is this the kind of thing you had in mind? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I haven't finished, you asked me, what is modernity, modernity to me is rule of law, women's status, etc. I mean that our family is forcing other members, like women, to follow what we are doing. Sometimes a good number of them will be angered for reason. I was standing there at University and I saw a couple of girls crying, when I asked them why are you crying, they said we have scored 95 percent to go to university and would like to train as a doctor, unfortunately they took the boys and they left us out. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI We don't want to break up families, we want to just put our plan, just to direct the blame to the right authorities, which is much, much bigger than families TIM SEBASTIAN Alright, gentleman on the end of the row there. AUDIENCE Q (M) So being a professor at Kuwait University and political sociology and writing over 20 books and 200 articles, don't you think for a small percentage that your family had some contribution to that over the years? This is my first question, my second question actually... TIM SEBASTIAN Just one question, just one. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I'm just wondering of the general argument because there are so many arguments beyond what we're talking about. And there's some people saying that it is not just us, what I'm trying to say is that if we have a positive value within our families, other things could be ruling better for our development. Well, I believe if I had a better education, if I had library in my house back in the 50s, 40s, that will be much better. Now we all know scientifically that people can train to read, this is between 8 and 12. This is scientific. So, if our family doesn't know exactly how to give this, unfortunately a good number of us will lose this opportunity. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI That's why we want to teach families to read and write, and parents work. That's why we want to invest in families, we don't want to kill them, we don't want to blame them. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I disagree with that, I disagree IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Disagree that families need to be educated? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I am disagreeing with what Dr Ibrahim was saying, you remember a few moments ago what he said, that a couple of years ago he put some ad and nobody come. And people are coming for full education, that's because the family is a problem. That's why they are coming to him, to have them solved. TIM SEBASTIAN Alright, we're going to take a question from the lady in red in the middle of the row there. AUDIENCE Q (F) Dr Islah, you said women in today's world, in the Arab world are liberated in a way, but if we are asked about, to identify a certain woman, we would say that she is the wife of, the daughter of, the sister of so and so, so how can we be liberated if you don't identify us by our own selves, just according to our male relatives. ISLAH JAD I, again talk about my own self. I don't identify by my husband and I refuse to be identified by my colleagues in the university by the name of my husband and I could give you hundreds of names of women who are not identified by their families or by their husbands. TIM SEBASTIAN But it's still a common practice is it, do you think it's a common practice? AUDIENCE Q (F) I think that the majority of women are being identified in that way and for me, personally I've been identified in that way many times. ISLAH JAD I disagree because we don't have a law that obliges women to change their name after then name of their husband. I have the Egyptian law, I have the Palestinian law, I have the many, I have many, many laws in the Arab world that don't force women to take the name of their families... TIM SEBASTIAN She's not talking about law, she's talking about practice AUDIENCE Q (F) You are identified, you're the wife of so and so, you're not identified as being who you are... ISLAH JAD Identify the husband by me. TIM SEBASTIAN Alright, gentleman over there please. Go ahead. AUDIENCE Q (M) Which reform are you talking about, are you talking about Western style, because of course we're looking at the other side of the ocean, Western style, where the families are broken and children are not protected? Ladies are not protected. They commit suicide, and you find many ladies who are raped. When you find the other side in Arab family and society, ladies are protected and respected and they are treated like queens. You never find them doing hard work. So which reform are you talking about? HAYFA MATAR But I'm not talking about the West, I'm talking about the potential. Fundamentally I, what I envisage the potential of our families to come up to, because what I see, there is when we do see certain problems within society, I don't feel that family are actually standing up against them. And that's fundamentally the problem. It's not about looking at the West and their broken homes. I agree that they're problems in the West that I hope we never import but it's a matter of how could we enhance further. When you do see clear problems within families, why aren't we being proactive to change this? MODHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I hope you're not going to say that we should keep our women at home, because the sun is very hot? AUDIENCE Q (M) No, I don't think so, our ladies they can go outside and they can help us as they do now. MAHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI But you want to make them queens? AUDIENCE Q (M) Well queens, it's a general respect in our society, this is our culture, this is our religion, we respect them. TIM SEBASTIAN Have you brought your wife with you? AUDIENCE Q (M) I brought my wife, she comes with me. TIM SEBASTIAN Where is she? AUDIENCE Q (M) But not now. She can come if I baby-sit, but said, you go. TIM SEBASTIAN Gentleman at the back, you had the microphone before and lost it, here's your second chance. AUDIENCE Q (M) Many of the great minds and world leaders, you read biographies, often they talk about the value of their parents and the way they were brought up. So it seems that to many of these people and many people in this room, the parents in the family are a powerful influence in their lives. What is it about the family that makes them so influential and if they are so influential should we not use this powerful unit as a medium for reform, as a way to develop and grow better? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI There is a famous bestseller in the States called All That I Know I Have Learnt During My Kindergarten, that's the first five years of life. 80% of our value system is, we gain it during the first five years of our life. The parents during the bedtime tell stories about, examples, they are feeding their kids and empowering their kids to be strong characters in the future. So it's a huge investment, that's why a lot of calls now in the West are asking working women to prioritise their priorities and to stay at home when they have their child, for a while, to just manage the plan of working. So what we are talking about is a good investment in this very sensitive stage of life and it's a very important and as you know now, the people are back to the parenting issues during the past 25 years is one of the issues arising in the West. TIM SEBASTIAN Lady in the third row. AUDIENCE Q (F) How do you think the girls in our families can continue the future while they are stuck by their family and they don't have much support? TIM SEBASTIAN Dr Jad. ISLAH JAD You give me the hard questions. Well I will give you the answer from my own experience with my own girl. I have a girl with a beautiful sculpture (figure), you know, and I'm not marketing her, she's already married, but she was convinced by all her colleagues in the school, she spent one year in the United States that she has to work as a fashion model. And she kept nagging day and night, I did not agree that she should work as a fashion model because you know what it takes working in such a profession it's a hard profession, and there's a boundary between fashion modelling and prostitution is very blurred sometimes. TIM SEBASTIAN I think a lot of people will disagree with that. ISLAH JAD Her father didn't agree either, but what we did was to take her to a fashion school, to a fashion modelling school and we presented her to the interview. And we asked if we can go with her, or she can go by herself, she said no problem, you come with me, so we went. The first question she was asked by the manager of the school is do you accept to do anything for money, and her first answer is no. And we said thank you, and we left. This is because, sometimes yes we can not convince you, by the danger might that await for you in the future, but we have to do our best to show you the way and this, afterwards it will be your choice. TIM SEBASTIAN OK, would you like to answer your own question? AUDIENCE Q (F) But most of the girls, and my own friends, they have differences between girls and boys. Boys are allowed to do most of the things, but girls are stopped by doing some things. ISLAH JAD But how can you explain that most, the distinguished students in our region, and I'm talking here out of my one experience, the empowerment of Arab women, that the majority of distinguished students in schools and universities are girls, not boys. AUDIENCE Q (F) You know the world's changing. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I'm just amazed, I have heard so many words and ideas from Dr Islah and this is getting to me. I mean modelling and prostitution, if she is teaching her students this kind of thing, modelling is very respectable work and hope we have a good number of our women go to this job. But definitely, if we connect this kind of jobs, modelling, going on television, driving the cars with other negative sorts of thing, I don't think, this is the value of prophesy of university, what kind of other values are we facing. This is one. The second, our women by their husband and again from Dr Islah, we have seen that she is an Egyptian and she follows her husband to the university because he's Palestinian. ISLAH JAD I take your point, yes of course. First of all about modelling, I consider myself as a feminist, as I belong to many feminist groups in all the world, whether in America or Europe, we vote in the West and here in the Arab world against the, you know, marketing of women bodies. Women's body is something respectable, it should be dignified body, not you know by big company, not something to sell goods, that's why I shy away for the showing of women's body to make men richer, you know, and poor women starve to be like the model and starve herself. I did not follow my husband to Palestine, my father in law was deported for 20 years and his kids where left alone, in the West Bank in the city of Ramallah and when he said well, you finish your school and it's about time to sit with the kids, my husband said no we want to finish our doctorate studies. I said no, I leave my husband in Paris, and go to the West Bank and sit with the kids because to sustain a Palestinian family... TIM SEBASTIAN You've made your point. You sir. AUDIENCE Q (F) A question for Dr Rumaihi, he kept repeating that family support, family support, family support, and he ignore that family support is nothing without the government's support, so my question is, do you think that if the government gave enough support to the families they will change from the obstacles of reform and progress, to be the key of reform and progress? TIM SEBASTIAN A very brief answer please. MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI I wonder who told you that our governments a reformist, you are wrong in that. They want to keep things as they are. ISLAH JAD Absolutely right. TIM SEBASTIAN Let's go to the gentleman in the second row. Could we have some questions over here? AUDIENCE Q (M) To what extent do you think the political issue and economical issue has a negative effect on families raising their children? MOHAMMAD AL RUMAIHI This is the egg or the chicken and this is the whole issue we have in debating, but here tonight we have been asked to talk about the family values, tribal values, and how they are hindering the general developing, either political or economic. So if we tackle this in our society, if we show our people that there's a good number of values and a good number of ideas within the family itself, if we can iron it out, if we can develop it, probably this small unit could be better for the whole society. I'll just finish. You couldn't have a democratic society without having a democratic family. TIM SEBASTIAN Hayfa, do you have a point? HAYFA MATAR Yes I wanted to discuss with you briefly, I agree with that, if families fostered, when there is more support that families will become better and will foster reform. TIM SEBASTIAN You in the front row; lady in the front. AUDIENCE Q (F) Do you think the family has a few influence, and if the family is transmitting values, such as obedience, how should this family educate their children to be self confident, because this is what we need, self confident children who are able to make their own decisions. IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Kids are born with a phenomena called ego-centricity, it means self, like a magnetic that brings everything towards the self and if family use the word no, they can never stop this growing lusty self from, so for a while you need to say no to the child until it reaches certain limits by then, through love, care and discipline, that's the well rounded shape for the child. Take some examples of bad practices we are applying here in the Gulf where kids are given more freedom to pick whatever they want. They will grow, they can't discipline themselves, they are posing problems to their teachers, because they can never stop, they'll never be stopped. So the family will bring you the secret recipe or the nice recipe for being well rounded, for discipline and being decision maker. So it's a balance between two things and this can never happen unless the family brings care, love and discipline. TIM SEBASTIAN Very briefly. HAYFA MATAR I have a brief comment, why aren't families more involved in the care-taking of their children, if you're saying that they're being brought up in housekeeper environments, why should mothers be more involved in care-taking. Why aren't mothers more involved in care-taking than what you're claiming? IBRAHIM AL-KHULAIFI Of course they are, there are cases where some women are outlet, or cheated to, and given jobs, told that your priority is to work outside and leave the kids, that's why we need to re-orient families, everywhere in the world kids are priorities. When you finish this priority go and work so I'm saying is, this is information we need to give to families, I'm not saying that families are 100% perfect, I'm saying that families are hindering, they are not hindering, the vast majority of families are doing fine, but there are a few cases where we need to teach and it's a continuous process. TIM SEBASTIAN We could go on for a long, long time but we've actually come to a point in the proceedings where we're going to vote on the motion. Back to Top

		TIM SEBASTIAN We're going to vote on the motion that 'This House believes that the family is the major obstacle to reform in the Arab world'. Would you take please your voting machines, if you want to vote for the motion will you press button 1, the yellow button, if you want to vote against it button 2, the red one and would you do that now, please, you only have to press once. Alright, the result is coming up on the screen now, looks very close. There we are, probably one of the closet votes we've had in the Doha Debates, 51% for the motion, 49% against. The motion is carried. Thank you very much indeed. All that remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished guests for coming here, some of you have come a long way, thank you to you the audience. We'll be back in the autumn, from all of us on the Doha Debates team, thank you very much, good night, goodbye. Back to Top